I have not published interviews on this blog before, but on November 29th, 2025 I had the opportunity to speak with the Oxford-UK based improvisor, pianist, and electronic musician Pat Thomas. I’ve been a huge fan of Thomas for years and have written about his music many times before on this blog. It was a great honor to interview Thomas about music, and I’m delighted to share the transcript with you.
Pat Thomas and I spoke for an hour and a half on Zoom. In our conversation, we chatted about a range of areas of interest to both Thomas’s fans and fans of creative improvised music. We talked about the music scene in Oxford, Thomas’s musical background and his early mentors, and spent some time discussing the great and underappreciated Lol Coxhill, who invited Thomas to play and record with him before his music had been documented anywhere else. We also talked about Thomas’s fantastic solo piano record HIKMAH, released in November 2025 (and which was near the top of my 2025 year-end list). A lot of our conversation is about the influence of jazz history and the importance of finding your own voice amidst those influences. Our discussion kept turning back to Monk, Cecil Taylor, Trane, Duke, and Oscar Peterson, which tells me volumes about how Thomas’s often very experimental music is grounded in jazz history. Many thanks to Steven Joerg of TAO Forms/AUM Fidelity for helping arrange for the interview, and for lending another pair of eyes looking at the transcript.
For the reader who may be new to Pat Thomas, I’ll say a few words of introduction. Thomas is one of the foremost creative musicians in the world. When Thomas released his first album as a co-leader in 1993 (Halim, with Lol Coxhill), he had already been playing professionally for over a decade. Since then, Thomas has regularly released new music and played live, in recent years at a breathtaking rate (he was on at least 12 releases in 2025). In an excellent profile at Point of Departure, Bill Shoemaker states Thomas’ music is “not simply of the world, but multiple worlds.” That quote captures a key to Thomas’ aesthetic – Thomas has an encyclopedic keyboard language, employing extended techniques at the keys and inside the piano, and at the same time, he channels jazz history. His playing will often quote Monk, or hint at touchstones like Ahmad Jamal, and in the next phase leap into atonality. This flexible music-making also describes the contexts in which he plays. While Thomas might be best known for playing spontaneous free improvisations in collective groups, his discography is liberally punctuated with delightful surprises. A funk-driven Anthony Braxton album? A legendary album of electronic jungle music? Gorgeous piano recitals of Duke Ellington? Abstract electronic albums inspired by Sufism? An (overlooked!) album of big band music composed by Thomas where he conducts rather than plays? A band that channels the piano language of Paul Bley? That’s all there and much more. Part of the joy of being a Pat Thomas fan is his incredible ability to surprise with almost every release.
While Thomas has been unfortunately overlooked for decades, in recent years his profile has risen, especially through his association with bass player Joel Grip, drummer Antonin Gerbal, and alto sax player Seymour Wright. With the bassist and drummer, they play as the powerful trio [Ism], and with the addition of Wright, as the group [Ahmed], which is devoted to playing and recontextualizing the music of legendary musical thinker Ahmed Abdul-Malik. These musicians have gained a reputation for playing live performances that overflow with “unbridled power.”
As a guide to Thomas’ music and a companion to this interview, I’ve also put together a discography of Thomas’ music that documents everything I’ve listened to so far:
Pat Thomas – Discography and Links
I could say much more! I hope you will enjoy this interview and learn something new about the great Pat Thomas:
(Photo credits: all photos by Dawid Laskowski)
INTERVIEW WITH PAT THOMAS (conducted on November 29th, 2025):
(Interview edited by James Koblin with additional editing by Steven Joerg. Brackets indicate text added by the editor for clarity, context and/or readability)
James Koblin: Hello Pat! I’d like to start by asking you about Oxford. I’m not really familiar with Oxford, United Kingdom, aside from knowing of Oxford University. So, can you tell me, what kind of setting Oxford has been – it’s where you live and where you grew up, right?
Pat Thomas: Yeah, I’m still there at the moment. Well, I didn’t really appreciate Oxford until I started traveling. Because, when you live somewhere, you’re always thinking, “I can’t wait to get out.” But when I started traveling abroad, and I told people I lived in Oxford, they would say, “you’re so lucky to live in such a great place.” But I thought, “oh, I don’t know why they think it’s so great.” And so – it was – but it was special. I had a great school – it’s what’s called comprehensive, [the English system of state funded secondary school], and great music teachers. My piano teacher, Mary Howell Price, was a fantastic teacher. And my first teacher was called Mrs. Smith. Also, I think what makes Oxford special is that it’s close enough to London, but you don’t have to live in London [laughter].
Also, when I was growing up, we probably had the best public library in the world. Because you can imagine, whatever things that Oxford University were getting rid of, they’d give it to the library. [They have] really great manuscripts – Messiaen, Schoenberg, all the 20th century music, as well as a really good jazz record collection. It was only when I started going to other libraries around the country and around the world that I realized how lucky I was to be in Oxford. So, you just take those things for granted.
JK: What was the music scene like for you when you were coming up?
PT: When I was growing up, Oxford had a great music scene, sort of underground. There were some very good players around, a guy called Pete McPhail, great player – and Matt Lewis, we had a band called Ghosts. And, um, I remember trying to break into the local jazz scene . . . but I had some problems. I think I got sacked in every gig up to age 22, because I’d been listening to Cecil Taylor. And I think, for me, the biggest problem was when I started getting into Monk – who I love – someone accused me of trying to mix in avant-garde music by playing “Evidence.” And I thought, it’s time to move on, because if they’re having problems with “Evidence,” they’re definitely going to have problems with other stuff, too . . .
JK: Yes, there’s a learning curve.
PT: Yeah, the first people I played with would have been my brothers. I’ve got two brothers, one’s a guitarist, he’s an excellent guitar teacher as well, and he plays in The Locals [Ed.: documented on Discus Music – 103CD, The Locals Play The Music Of Anthony Braxton], and my other brother was a very good drummer, but he gave up drumming to become world champion at kickboxing. And then became a top test driver for BMW. And he’s just moved to Morocco now.
JK: A very talented family!
PT: Yeah, well it’s from my parents, who were Antiguan Caribbean, I guess we’re sort of overachievers, I suppose. We were encouraged to listen to all kinds of music and check out the arts. It’s not about wealth; it’s about checking things out – a sort of eclecticism. You could listen in our house to Lee Perry, Beethoven and Derek Baily – all at the same time! [laughter]
JK: That’s so important to hear different genres connected with each other.
PT: I think that’s probably why, so like you said before we started, doing something like the music of Braxton, and then working on, say, Monk, and doing the music I do with [the quartet] [Ahmed] . . . I just see it as part of the same thing. I suppose my upbringing is responsible for that, having that opportunity. Also, playing with people who were very open-ended like that, like Steve Beresford and Mike Cooper. I mean, do you know Steve Beresford? He’s a major improviser. He was one of the second generation after Derek Bailey and Dave Toop.
JK: Can you tell me some of the musicians who were important to you coming up in Oxford?
PT: Yeah, they had a great group called the Alterations, which was, David Toop, Steve Beresford, Peter Cusack, and Terry Day. They were quite influential on the British improvised scene. And there was Mike Cooper, again, who bridged two worlds, because he was known as a blues guitarist, and also as a free improviser. He was in a group with Lol Coxhill and Roger Turner called The Recedents, which is one of my all-time favorite groups – I saw them quite a few times. [Here’s a video of a 2007 performance]. And then there was a great saxophone player named Geoff Hawkins, who lived in Reading, and again, he was a great player. Hawkins might play with Eddie Prevost or Evan Parker in the 70s and also doing reggae sessions. So, I’ve been around a lot of creative people, and it just rubs off on you, these different approaches.
JK: So, you mentioned your piano teachers before, so I just wanted to ask you a little bit more about that. When you first started playing piano, what type of piano literature were you practicing and learning, and what did your teachers do for you? I imagine that wasn’t jazz at first. So, when did it flip over into jazz?
PT: I had a very good first teacher named Mrs. Smith who lived literally around the corner. And she was very strict on the basics, making sure your fingers are in the right place. She probably wouldn’t work in today’s sort of environment, because she would, hit you with a ruler! But it wasn’t hard, just a little tap. But you couldn’t do that now, you know what I mean? I was learning basic composition pieces like Bach, and Scarlatti. And my other teacher [Mary Howell Price] [helped me get my start]. I got into jazz around 16 when I was watching the TV, and Oscar Peterson came on. And of course, I was just knocked out by his technique and this music, which I’d never really come across, was jazz.
JK: That’s incredible.
PT: If you have access to these things, it does change your life, and at that time, jazz was on the TV, mainstream TV, and at a reasonable time, it wasn’t midnight, you know?
So as a kid, I was watching this, and I was fascinated, and so I started getting into jazz about 16. But at those times, it sounds crazy, but jazz was still sort of a taboo, so I was hiding it from my teacher. And I think she found out because I was sight-reading a lot of things. She said one day, “what’s up?” and I told her “I’m just getting into jazz,” and she said, “oh, that’s great, but you don’t have to give up your classical, you know?” And she was a big fan of Oscar Peterson herself. She got me my first gig, would you believe? Mary, Mrs. Price, she got me my first gig.
JK: What gig was that?
PT: I played with a guy called Tim Crane, whose brother was a great composer – Lawrence Crane. We only had two tunes. We had “Take Five” and a blues. So that was our repertoire [laughter]. And we sort of managed to get away with it.
JK: When would that have been?
PT: Around 1977-1978, yeah.
JK: So how did your playing develop from there?
PT: Then when I left school, I started to get more seriously into jazz. I always knew I was going to be a musician by the age of 10, but I didn’t know what music. But then, when I got the jazz bug, I think that, that really, inspired me. I think, see, I needed to see someone like Oscar Peterson as a young black piano player. Because, I was getting into the classical world, and I knew about Andre Watts and George Walker, but [in classical music] there weren’t that many Black musicians. But when I found out about this music, which was created by Black musicians in America, and I’d never heard it, I was quite shocked that technically, it was on the same level as classical music. But the fact that they were improvising, and that was the thing that really hooked me. Because when I got the sheet music of Oscar Peterson, and I started to play, [the sheet music] it sounded nothing like the guy! [laughter]
JK: It’s different on the page than the ear, yeah.
PT: Yeah! I was thinking, why is that? And I realized, then, it was an epiphany, that [in jazz] the music is not on the page. And from then on, I wanted to be able to express myself and to improvise well. So, I got that bug maybe 18, 19, and started going to jazz gigs in Oxford. So, as I was saying before, it was a good scene, and fortunately, there were very great players. [That’s how I first met Tony Oxley]. One of the Oxford players was the drummer, Nigel Morris. Morris, it turned out, was Tony Oxley’s top student, which I didn’t know, I just knew he was a great drummer. And then, a couple of weeks later, this guy with this massive cow bell turned up, and it was Tony Oxley!
JK: In Oxford, right?
PT: Yah, in Oxford, because it was very close to London, and became a very good scene. I mean, another gig which I’ll never forget was Peter Brötzmann, with Peter Kowald, and Paul Lovens, and that blew me away. So I thought, “I’ve found my place.” I was very lucky to see people like Tony, and then Derek Bailey, and Evan Parker, I saw them all pretty much within about 6 months. I saw Braxton in the 80s, I saw Sun Ra – on my birthday, which was incredible. Yeah, that was a special birthday present, it’s still probably the best synthesizer solo I’ve ever heard. I got to see the Gil Evans Orchestra, and things like that.
JK: So, everyone came through.
PT: Yes. So, by 20, I was hooked. Of course, those things have a big, big impression on you. Obviously, you could tell how naive I was, because I didn’t realize [playing jazz music] was probably not the greatest financial situation, but at that age you don’t think about that, and you just want to learn how to play the music and go to gigs.
JK: Aside from live shows, were there records that got you hooked? You mentioned Oscar Peterson, but were there formative jazz records for you?
PT: Oh yes. The first [jazz] record had been Oscar Peterson, then I discovered Art Tatum, which obviously was good and bad! I mean you have to acknowledge what Tatum means, but in the sense what you have to do with Tatum is just forget it on another level too, you know what I mean? Just forget about it, because…if Oscar Peterson says he was on the verge of giving up [after hearing Tatum], and Oscar Peterson himself is an incredible piano player, you’ve just got acknowledge what he does [and try and find your own thing], you know. The great thing about Art Tatum is some of the things he was doing in the 1930s were so harmonically advanced, and they don’t sound old. Nothing he does sounds dated.
Of course, then I heard Cecil, which was interesting, because I’d been warned about this guy, Cecil Taylor, I was told, “you don’t want to hear this guy, he can’t even play the piano, he can’t play jazz”. So, I got this record from a really great record shop in Oxford named Garon Records, and I got to know Mike, who ran the record shop, and he would get me stuff. So, Mike got me this compilation album called Piano Jazz, [Footnote 1] and the last track was Cecil Taylor, so I thought “well, it’s not going to kill me. It’s only one track. There’s loads of other great piano players on the record, so for my 99P, I’m not going to be wasting my money.” So anyway, I get ready for the last track, thinking, “oh, well, if it’s rubbish, it’s not the end of the world,” you know? And of course, I was completely blown away, and I thought, if this guy can’t play the piano, who can? [laughter]
JK: Amazing – that’s not the purpose of criticism, because it’ll turn you off of great music.
PT: Yes, I think the trouble is a lot of critics get stuck on one thing. I mean, obviously, we love bebop, and we love swing, but [critics can] expose their lack of knowledge. Because as a piano player, I thought, if this guy can’t play the piano, then I don’t know who can. I honestly could say I thought this guy’s an incredible piano player. I always say to people that Cecil saved the piano. He saved the piano because, when you think of what Ornette Coleman was doing, music was getting to the stage where they were getting into microtonal stuff, and they didn’t really need the piano. They saw the piano as a hindrance, because once they decided they didn’t need the changes anymore, what’s the role of the piano, you know? [laughter]
JK: Right, and Ornette wasn’t the only one. There were a lot of groups that had no piano, so the piano may have been going out.
PT: I always say Cecil saved the piano, Cecil and Sun Ra. But Cecil created this system on the piano, and I don’t think people are always aware just how important it was for the piano. Because, obviously, younger players, like Chick Corea – all these people – were influenced by Cecil, and they all ended up in Miles’ band. So that tells you how influential he was. And I think the reason Chick Corea was interested in Cecil was because he wasn’t just playing changes, but he had great chops, you know? So, obviously a lot of people realize, but I don’t think they understand his impact on the piano.
JK: No, I think we’re still catching up with Cecil, right?
PT: We’re still catching up. I was fortunate enough to meet Cecil’s personal driver. [Ahmed] played in a place in Switzerland called Willisau. Cecil used to play there a lot, and I met his personal driver. He was the person who would pick up Cecil and look after him. He said something that really summed it up for me. He’d pick up Cecil from the airport, drop him off at the hotel, have some rest, and then the first thing [Cecil would] want to do once he’d had some rest is find a piano to practice on. I mean, we’re talking about Cecil Taylor, who’s already, phenomenal, and I just thought, look at that – he’s still thinks about practicing the instrument. So, he’s a great inspiration, really, yeah.
JK: That’s like the story about John Coltrane, that between sets at the Village Vanguard he used to go into the kitchen and just practice.
PT: It’s insane, because I was lucky enough to play with Sirone [bassist Norris Sirone Jones], and Sirone had played with Coltrane, and – some people think it’s an urban myth – but he said Coltrane literally went to sleep with the saxophone, and woke up, the first thing he would do was play the saxophone. I mean, that’s on another level of intensity. You know, the dedication to put in hours and hours a day on an instrument, I mean, most people do 2 or 3 hours, and then they’re like, “I’m exhausted.” It’s a very hard thing to do, and to keep it consistent and do that.
And it’s not just the technical side. It’s also the way they improvised on the material that is something so extraordinary. I was listening to Bud Powell playing “Cherokee,” and the speed – to think that fast and create those lines in real time – it’s extraordinary. I think about the hierarchy about the classical musician being at the top, but it’s not true, I’ll be honest with you. As somebody who studied and played as a classical musician, there’s a lot of work, but it’s a lot easier when you’ve just got to play what’s on the page.
JK: You can practice it over and over, so you get it perfect.
PT: Yeah! Yeah! But you could practice all day, and still, it might not work. So, I’ve always felt that really the highest level is improvisation, and I think, really, still to this day, even in the country where jazz was born, that jazz is underappreciated.
JK: Oh, absolutely.
PT: This is especially true for the pianist. You think about someone like Tommy Flanagan. I just love the idea of him going to the studio to play with Coltrane [on the Giants Steps sessions] and, you know, he’s got it covered. And then he goes to Coltrane and assumes “Giants Steps” is a ballad because there’s so many changes. And so, when Coltrane gave the tempo, Flanagan said, “excuse me?” Can you imagine trying to play this music at that tempo? But he does a great job, I mean…
JK: All right. Yes – so Tommy Flanagan wasn’t the only piano player on the Giant Steps sessions. Cedar Walton also gave “Giant Steps” a try on a take that was issued later. So, they brought in Tommy Flanagan to do it over again, because no one could keep up with that tune in 1959!
PT: Incredible! Yeah, and now it’s become a bit of a circus thing, where people learn to play [“Giant Steps”] really fast, but the thing is, what they don’t realize, that it was so original at the time, and now people just try to recreate what Coltrane did. It’s one of the flaws of jazz education. To be honest with you, teaching jazz is really hard. I always think that what you have to do is have two versions of the record. I mean, I learned it old school. I’d have a record to listen to, and I’d have a record to play along to, and you get roasted every day. And then one day, it clicks, [but that takes time.] So, if it’s taken you, maybe nearly a year, it’s not good on a course, you know what I mean? Because, you can’t say “what’s he doing?” [and for the answer to be] “He’s still trying to play the first 8 bars of “Giant Steps.” So I think it’s really hard. I mean, especially living in Europe, one of the things that I think younger players don’t get access to, is playing with and watching really great rhythm sections, and how they swing. I mean, I’m very lucky. I got to see Tony Oxley, I got to see a gentleman named Bryan Spring [who studied with Philly Joe Jones]. I got to see really good rhythm sections, and I think you can have all the technique in the world, but if it doesn’t swing – Duke’s still right – if it doesn’t swing. . . you know, you had people saying that Cecil doesn’t swing, but that’s ridiculous. If he doesn’t swing, who does?
JK: Well, there’s all kinds of energy, you know? Yeah. Pat, one of the things I wanted to ask you about, to go back a bit, is about Lol Coxhill. I don’t think I’ve seen too much about him here in the States, and I know he’s really special, especially since he was an older musician when you were coming up, who put you on as co-leader on some of your first records. So, could you tell me a bit about Lol Coxhill, and who he was, and who he meant to you as a mentor?
PT: Yes well, Lol was really special. Of course, totally underappreciated in his own country. The guy could play in any context and always sound like Lol, and really that’s what you aspire to. In a way he was a big influence on me, because I’ve seen him play with The Damned. You know, he’s played in a punk rock situation, he’s played in a free improvisation thing, and then he’s probably doing a big band, and he always sounds like himself. Very open musician. Always encouraging younger players. I just remember when he asked me to play with him, I was just speechless, because, I was in awe of this guy, he’s one of the great players, you know? And he sort of said, “oh, how about doing a duo,” and I think I went straight on the piano for about 3-4 hours flat, thinking “I’m going to have to keep practicing now!” [laughter].
Because the thing about Lol is he’s such an encyclopedia. I think I was very lucky with the people I got to know, and playing with him. You know, we played standards, we did play free, we did all sorts of things. A good example, I remember we got asked to do a gig in a little bar. But they wanted us to do our more free stuff – which is pretty out there! Anyway, so we’re doing our thing, and then the woman who booked us, bless her, she goes up to Lol and says, look, “I’m really sorry, but my manager just told me that if you continue to do that, he’s going to sack me!” [laughter]. And Lol, being so experienced, he already had said to me before the gig happened, he said, “bring your blue book, just in case.” In England, what was called a blue book would be all your standard tunes, which you put together yourself. So, the second set, we just played standards – and she kept her job! [laughter]
JK: Okay, well, that was great.
PT: And that’s what I mean about it – he could really play in any context and always sound like Lol. I remember seeing him in a great band called Trevor Watts Moire Music. And he was just incredible in that. [Here’s a performance from 1985 – Lol solos at 3:50]. Also, he’d done a lot of reggae, funk . . . I mean, he played with [Jimi] Hendrix, you know?
JK: Oh, I didn’t know that.
PT: Yeah, he jammed with Hendrix. He would keep things quiet. You’d be on the road with him, and you’d say about something, he would say, “I remember jamming with Hendrix.” And I would say “You never told me that!”
JK: Oh yes. What really comes through to me, just from his records, is a certain humility, and also a great sense of humor.
PT: Yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a great group, which was Lol Coxhill, Steve Beresford, Tony Coe called the Melody Four, but it’s a trio. Not always very well, but they would have a go at singing some of these standards. [Here’s a video of a 1996 set at a church in the Netherlands]. You know, the music was fantastic, fantastic playing. I mean, Tony Coe was a great jazz tenor player and Lol [was there], and Steve Beresford on piano. So, there was always a sense of humor, there was always a bit of irony, because some of the lyrics for some of these standards are quite terrible, aren’t they? The thing is, see, that Lol was an actor. He was in the actors’ union. Sometimes he’d end up getting a small part in a film. Yeah, so he could, play a part, but sometimes, which is what some people don’t understand, he used a lot of his acting ability, in a humorous way.
See Lol, like another great musician, Harry Beckett who passed as well, told me about a certain street in London. You went there first thing in the morning, and you’d be ready, because Lol could play all the reeds. And someone would say, “we need two tenors, two altos.” It’s totally different now, but that’s how [musicians would get work] they’d go to this place first thing in the morning and would see what jobs they’re going to get for the day. So, Lol’s chosen instrument was the soprano, but he could play [anything] – he played the baritone. I remember being in his place, and I remember one time [seeing his baritone sax], and I said “oh, why don’t you play that?” – “Oh, it’s too much, too much hassle, Pat.” He just loved to play the soprano. But he could play all the reeds. Fantastic musician.
And he was very disciplined, like you said, very humble too, which worked to his disadvantage in England, and that people sort of took him for granted. Because he was so humorous, he would do jobs as a compere [master of ceremonies]. Some people didn’t realize that he’s not just a good compere, but he’s also a great player. I think Ronnie Scott had the same trouble, that he liked to have a bit of a banter with the audience before, and some people didn’t realize that Ronnie Scott was a player. Because Lol would be asked to be the compere for festivals, he would have to go into the same thing. But he was very self-effacing, he’d always be like that. A lot of those great players are like that. Always critical of themselves and critique and what they’re playing all the time. But Lol, he was very special, great world-class player.
JK: Pat so I want talk about, talk about your new solo piano record, HIKMAH (TAO Forms, 2025). First of all, I’ll have to say that this music is just brilliant, and I really think this is an ideal starting point for a listener who wants to hear your solo piano language. And this cover portrait is amazing.
PT: Oh, it’s incredible, isn’t it? Yeah, [photographer] Dawid Laskowski, I mean, he’s fantastic, I don’t know how he did it. I just remember him saying, “oh, could you stand there,” and “perfect,” you know. I just always loved that photo of his, and he’s a great photographer.
I’m really pleased with the record. I did it in London in a great studio – Fish Factory – with a great engineer, Ben [Benedic Lamdin]. In some ways, I mean, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I think the good thing is, because it’s a studio album, you try different things out. So, I tried some shorter pieces, I tried some pieces where I’m just playing inside the piano, some pieces have more of a jazzy thing, and I was able to do a lot of rhythm things. And it just clicked. When you’ve got a good engineer, you don’t have to worry about if it’s being captured well.
JK: The record sounds beautiful. Especially the stuff inside the piano, which I’m sure is not easy to capture, and it really is caught very well on this record.
PT: Mmm, definitely! Yeah, I was really impressed with how Ben places the microphones, and the detail he’s able to get, even when I’m playing really quietly inside the piano, you can really hear it. Ben’s one of the great engineers. And also, I love the piano there. It’s a really nice old piano, old sort of Steinway. I think the owner got it from the States and he shipped it over to England, you could say it’s a lovely piano.
JK: I always wonder with solo recitals or albums, what’s the mix of preparation versus improvisation? Because you’re not interacting with the band, you have the luxury of premeditating this. So, you know, how much of it is thought beforehand, or is it all in the moment?
PT: It’s all in the moment, and [also] it was sort of short notice. I remember I got an email from Steven [Joerg, of TAO Forms/AUM Fidelity], that they’d like us to do something. We booked the time, and then there was a [much earlier studio] date that came up, and we changed it the next day, so. I suppose I could have had say, three months to do it, but [instead] we decided to go in straight away. I just thought I could maybe play 3 or 4 pieces and play [them] back. And then I’d think, alright, “let’s try those things,” and “okay, let’s try that.” So, it was pretty open-ended, and on the spur of the moment. I didn’t really plan anything. You know, because the piano’s so good, and the engineer – Ben – he’s so good, I could just try things out, and then I could say, “I’d like to listen back to some of the thing,” and “maybe I’ll try this idea.” And that’s the nice thing about the studio. You have this instant editing. You don’t have to worry about it. If you’re playing in a performance obviously, you don’t just stop in the middle of a piece and say, “oh, I’m going to go here now.” It’s nice to be able to sit back, listen to things. I thought I’d try and make it as a studio album rather than as if I’m playing live. It’s a totally different approach when you’re doing a live concert. So, I approached [HIKMAH] as a studio recording, but I didn’t have any set pieces or anything like that.
JK: I wanted to ask you about the titles of the piece on HIKMAH. They are all dedications.
PT: I came up with the titles later, listening [back] to it. I wanted to dedicate one of the pieces to Joe Gallivan, because he was a great mentor to me when he was living in London. I’ll never forget that – this guy’s played with Gil Evans, and he’d be coming down to Oxford to play with me, and I just thought, this is crazy, you know? Again, not always heralded, but Joe Gallivan was one of the great, great, ones and one of my heroes. Fantastic drummer, also a great innovator with electronic drums playing drum synths, using the Moog synthesizer attached to a snare drum. Listening back to the tracks, but I just knew I wanted to dedicate a track to Joe Gallivan.
JK: I don’t know Gallivan. I’m going to have to do my homework.
PT: Joe Gallivan . . . there’s a record, There Comes a Time, by the Gil Evans Orchestra. And there’s a drum synth solo. Joe Gallivan is playing a Moog, and on the record is Tony Williams. It’s a great line up. He’s a specialist with the drum synthesizer. Also, he had a great duo with a great saxophone player – Charles Austin [Expression To The Winds]. A lot of the stuff is not that easy to get hold of now. But he had a band with Eric Dolphy, with Herbie Hancock…
JK: Oh, wow. Well, to be playing with Tony Williams as a drummer and to find a space to play, it’s just incredible.
PT: Yeah, yeah! Joe Gallivan was an unsung hero, and Joe was on the scene. He moved to London, which was great. He played a lot with Keith Tippett and all the top players on the London scene. He was a real mentor for me. I mean, he just basically started giving me these gigs, which I probably wasn’t up to at the time, you know. He put a lot of faith into me, and I just think, what’s he doing playing with me? This guy’s a legend, you know? [laughter]
JK: That generosity is such an important part the community.
PT: Yeah, yeah, totally! And I think people forget that. That’s why, that whole thing of passing it on, that legacy, it needs to be, you know, you need to hang out with the players, that way you understand what people like Joe Gallivan are doing. I’ve been very lucky, people like Roger Turner, Phil Minton, like you said, Lol Coxhill, Mike Cooper, I had a lot of people who, put time in and encouraged me to play. Keith Tippett was very encouraging, and Howard Riley. As a young player, you need that encouragement.
JK: One of the song titles on HIKMAH is “For McCoy Tyner.” I wanted to ask you about that. What is it about McCoy Tyner that you were trying to capture with that performance?
PT: Well, with McCoy. If you think about it, he’s the most influential pianist in jazz. I mean, really. And also [I wanted to capture] his selflessness, he always was happy to make the music work. I think as a role model, what’s important is not about you. Because obviously he’s an incredible piano player, and he opened the music with his innovations … but just the way he was so selfless. When I was thinking about it, I thought the best tribute you can do is something where it’s the essence. I didn’t want to do a recreation of McCoy. But I think people forget just how shocking what they were doing was when [McCoy Tyner and John Coltrane] started to create this music. There’s the classic story that – was it Downbeat? – apparently sort of calling out Coltrane and Eric Dolphy and saying, what the hell are you doing?
JK: Yes, the music was called “anti-jazz.”
PT: I mean, that band, [The John Coltrane Quartet] was shocking. It was so tight, it was so integrated. And I think, McCoy was always about the music. So, his inspiration, his influence on me is that “it’s not about you, it’s always about how do you fit, how you make the music work,” rather than about showing off what I can do, you know what I mean? So, in that way, I’ve always felt he’s so important. If you think about it, he’s so overlooked. I mean, I may be wrong, but I haven’t come across a biography of McCoy Tyner.
JK: I’m not aware of one. And with McCoy you know, he introduced a new language for jazz. It’s not just a piano-specific thing. I mean, after McCoy there was an entirely new vocabulary for the music.
PT: Exactly! And there’s no books on the guy, I mean…how does that happen? One of the most influential… I mean, he’s the most influential pianist in jazz, and there’s not even one biography of this guy.
JK: Someone will have to do something about that.
PT: I’m just surprised, I’m sure his life must have been extraordinary, you know what I mean?
JK: Maybe Robin Kelly wants to write another, biography, like the one of Monk.
PT: I hope so, because, I mean, his book on Monk was great. And I think he’s probably the sort of guy who could really get deep into about McCoy. And really get into it, yeah. But we need a major book on McCoy Tyner, it’s crazy.
JK: Another dedication on HIKMAH is “For Caroline L. Karcher,” who I will admit I was not familiar with. Can you tell me about why you made this dedication?
PT: Ooh, well, this might get me into trouble. And funny enough, I have the book in front of me here. She edited a great book, Reclaiming Judaism from Zionism: Stories of Personal Transformation. This was a very brave book to write. She’s a professor of English and a great scholar. She’s very active in trying to create a counter-narrative from the official sort of Zionist narrative, and she was doing this years ago. And she’s one of these people who are not appreciated for trying to find alternative ways of talking about history. I thought, it’d be great to write a piece for her. I was thinking in terms of using repetition, and also the way she is a really good editor. I just remembered thinking, my gosh, she’s really putting herself on the line, you know? I was very moved, moved by her making such a book.
JK: Wiliam Parker writes in the liner notes, “if you listen closely, you will hear the voice of all the children in the world crying out. ‘Stop dropping bombs on me.’ ‘Stop destroying the world.’” So, I wanted to ask you, what is the role of the musician in the fight for justice?
PT: Yeah, that’s right. I think as an artist, whatever’s going on, it’s going to influence you, and I always think you try to be an artist, you try to be positive and be aware of what’s going on. There’s lots of madness going on all the time in the world. For instance, when Brexit happened, we thought, can it get any worse? And then America put Trump in for the first time.
JK: And who would have thought it would happen again?
PT: So as an artist, I personally don’t believe in the separation between art and the political. That’s a privilege for some people who may be in a gated community who can do that, and things that occur to ordinary people don’t happen to them. I mean, think about, Coltrane right at the heart of the Civil Rights Movement, wrote a piece called “Alabama.”
No one will say that they got lectures on civil rights from Coltrane, but he made it, and it’s such a profound piece. I think he’s saying this is very negative, what’s happening, but out of this negativity he made something positive, and I think that’s what the artist can do, is we can say, “we’ve got to rise above it,” you know?
JK: Or Mingus is another example.
PT: Um, yes, Mingus. “Fables of Faubus,” all those pieces he made, and they were very political. I think this sort of apolitical thing, it’s probably to do more with, I’ll be honest, once you get into academia it’s probably easier just to close shop, you know? But people like Sonny Rollins, [Coltrane, and Mingus], they were witnessing things. I remember hearing the Sonny Rollins Freedom Suite, it wasn’t that popular. And I also remember watching a video of Coltrane playing “Alabama,” and the guy [introducing the performance] didn’t mention anything about what happened, just that “it’s a relatively new piece.”[Footnote 2] That’s really crazy. But that was Coltrane using his position to put it across his way. So, I think it’s important that artists don’t bury their heads in the sand, in my view. Jazz in its essence, has always been the underdog, fighting back. If you think about Charlie Parker’s “Now’s The Time” – people think of it now as an easy blues. What do they think “Now’s The Time” is about? It’s not about eating donuts, is it? [laughter]
JK: No, it’s not. I wanted to talk about [Ahmed], because you’re coming back to New York City in February 2026, which I’m very excited about.
[Ed.: Unfortunately, [Ahmed] could not make in the United States for the February 2026 shows. 411, the organizer of the NYC shows at Shapeshifter, posted the following announcement: “We’re sorry to share disappointing news with the many fans of [Ahmed]: due to unexpected circumstances, the band members are unable to travel to the U.S. this February.”]
PT: Yeah, in February. Yeah, we’re just working out the final schedule, but I’m looking forward to being there, we’ll do 3 nights in New York City at Shapeshifter. And then we go to Philadelphia, we’re going to be playing at Ars Nova in Philadelphia, and we finish in Chicago, Peter Margasak does a great festival there. We play that night with [the turntablist] Miriam Rezaei. And so, we do that night, and then we fly back home.
And then I have a couple of days off, and then I go in the studio with this great young tenor player – Sakina Abdul. Yeah, watch out for her. She’s done some stuff on Relative Pitch Records; she had the trio [Ed. – Hammer, Roll and Leaf, with Marta Warelis and Toma Gouband, RPR1220]. But she’s a seriously heavyweight player.
JK: Relative Pitch is amazing. You just listen to that label, and you can catch up on most of the scene.
PT: Yeah, so I think she’s done a solo record on Relative Pitch, [Ed.- Goodbye Ground RPRSS013].
JK: I’ll have to look for that.
PT: But check her out, she’s a really seriously heavy player, yeah. But the new generation, I mean bless her, they’re so different in their outlook. I mean, this tells you the difference in the generations. I remember she said to me about, “what do you think of doing a photo shoot at 9:30AM?” I said, “it’s not going to happen!” [laugher] My generation didn’t even think about photos, and not a photo shoot at 9:30AM in the morning. Yeah, they’re much more tuned into those things, you know. But yeah, she’s a great player. Watch out for her, Sakina Abdul. She lives in Lille, in France, but she’s making waves. She played solo at the Berlin Jazz Festival this year, and I didn’t get to see her because I was playing there solo, but someone who was interviewing me told me the way she played the tenor made her weep, that is pretty heavy.
JK: We didn’t talk about Monk at all, so I’ve got to circle back around to Monk, and I understand that [Ahmed], has now recorded Monk repertoire which has not been released yet.
PT: I mean, it had to happen. Well, because we’ve done just about everything recorded by [Ahmed Abdul-Malik], and then we were thinking it’d be nice to play a lot of the tunes that he did with Monk at the Five Spot. So, we recorded “Friday the 13th,” we, of course, we did “Evidence,” and we did record “Oska T,” which, you know, he didn’t play on, but you’ve got to break the rules sometimes. We do a short version of “Epistrophy.” But you suddenly realize what a major bass player and major figure [Ahmed Abdul-Malik] is. He was playing with Monk at a time when Monk was really at his peak, so to be in that group, and then you see the link between Ahmed Abdul-Malik and Coltrane, and then he ends up playing with Coltrane at the Village Vanguard and he’s on “India.” So, the musicians were really hip to each other, you know what I mean? I’m sure Coltrane realized, and they knew how important this guy was. It’s the critics who need to take the time, you know what I mean?
JK: Just like the critics took a long time to catch up with Monk. Can you tell me more about why Monk is so special?
PT: Well, one thing is Monk’s bands. You know, the trouble is the whole thing about the front man, and just thinking the tenor being in the front, and not realizing [jazz is about] the whole group. You know, the thing about Monk, which is so special, are his rhythm sections. If you’re the bass player in Monk’s band, you’ve got to be a great bass player, and you must swing like nobody’s business, because that’s what Monk requires. Monk’s music requires you to be able to swing. Look at “Evidence.” I mean, the genius of that tune is you think “how did he come up with that piece?” And it’s sort of loosely based on “Just You, Just Me.” But how did he come up with that piece?
JK: That’s just pure genius there.
PT: It’s just pure genius, and I know sometimes you get people saying it’s not a hip thing to say “genius,” but I think we’ve got to acknowledge that. One of the great things about jazz is that it’s not just a collective music, but out of it, you do have these incredibly remarkable individuals. I mean, there’s just nobody like Monk or Sun Ra. [Another thing] I love about Monk is the economy. Every note has to count. He’s also the most pianistic of all the bebop players. I mean, I love Bud to death. But Bud adapted the single line approach of the horn players to the piano. Monk never did that. He always played piano. It comes from swing. It’s still very pianistic. Some people don’t realize, they always think of him as the “weird one,” but he’s actually the one who’s sticking to the piano, as a piano, but in bebop. I mean, obviously, Bud was a genius, the way he created melodies and at that speed. But sometimes these people who say Monk can’t play, I mean, well – you try and play those pieces. When Monk plays those pieces, he never messes up. Even Coltrane messes up sometimes. Not Monk! So, you know, this whole idea that Monk can’t play . . .
JK: Well, hopefully people aren’t saying that anymore. People are finally coming around. It takes half a century, but people come around.
PT: And like I said, the economy… and every note has to count. And just the importance of your own sound. Monk is the only pianist where you, within one second, you know it’s Monk, just from the sound. It’s incredible. Because in theory, that’s not supposed to happen on a piano. Again, it’s the specialty of jazz, you know, this is what I’m saying. On the piano, that you have such a distinctive sound is incredible.
JK: It is, like you said, from one note, “oh, that’s Monk.”
PT: One note, immediately. In the same way, to be honest with you with Art Tatum, or Oscar [Peterson]. They’ve got different [sounds]… and again, and one of the great men, Ahmed Jamal – the way that he would just put a phrase. It’s that whole thing of swing. Coming from an improvised music scene, you’ve got a whole different approach, but I am fascinated with the great jazz musicians, like Monk. No matter how complex the music is, it still swings! I would say is the biggest problem in education, is you have to go with a master. I really believe that. You need to hang with people who know what swing is. Like with Monk. Monk’s rhythm sections are great, you know [just look at drummer] Frankie Dunlop.
JK: Yes. Oh, he’s so underappreciated, he’s great. Yes, and obviously Ben Reilly. All the Monk drummers.
PT: Incredible! Ben Reilly was… yeah! But all of the drummers swing like crazy. You know, and one thing I found out about Monk, which was so funny, I’m not sure if it was David Izenson, but one of the younger bass players, fantastic musicians. [But when he played with Monk] he started doing some stuff played arco, and Monk looks at him and says, “could you stop that? Pizzicato [please]”….
JK: Well, there’s that, there’s that story about bassist Oscar Pettiford having difficulty on the Brilliant Corners session because the tune was so unconventional to confront in the studio and Monk didn’t use sheet music – you had to follow by ear.
PT: And also, because [Pettiford] was such a great reader. But the thing is, see, I mean, it’s a very old-school approach, but Monk knows that – people will read it, but they wouldn’t get the swing. The only way they’re going to get that swing is playing it by ear. I don’t know if you noticed, but a lot of people who say they’re playing Monk tunes, they’ll play “Round Midnight” and “Well, You Needn’t.” They never touch some of the trickier tunes. I think one of the worst things was poor Oliver Nelson’s arrangements of some of Monk, his arrangements of Monk are just horrendous. [Ed.: The 1968 album Monk’s Blues]. Like, trying to clean up the bar lines. I’m so glad that we’ve got documentation of Monk, and of what he really sounded like. Because, in the future, no one will be able to soften it up with Monk. The brittle, the discordant sound of Monk, those people who want to smooth everything out, they’ve got to deal with that. And the swing – I think that’s why so few people play Monk tunes, because they’re not easy to play properly, you know?
JK: No. Do you know the guitar player Miles Okazaki? He has this project, where he plays Monk on guitar [Work (Complete, Volumes 1-6)] and he has recorded every Monk tune on guitar, and last year at the Jazz Gallery in New York, he did a show where he did four sets, a marathon where he played every Monk tune live.
PT: That’s incredible! He’s definitely crazy on the guitar. Thank you, I’d love to check that out, because, Monk’s music is not easy on any instrument, especially on the guitar. I don’t even know how he got round “Skippy.”
JK: Funny you mentioned “Skippy.” Before Okazaki played it live, he said, “I don’t know if I’m going to play this right, but here goes.” He made that one of the first tunes, just to get out of the way, you know?
PT: I don’t blame him. That’s my view, it’s like, get it out of the way. Yeah, but that’s such a tricky tune. And I think, in some ways, Monk was doing that to show people,
when people were thinking about how Bird and Dizzy did things, “you want a tricky tune, try this!” [laughter] Yeah, [Monk] really is so special, and I think the key is the way that all his tunes, they totally make sense. They have their own internal logic. And if you don’t respect that, there’s no point playing those tunes. You know, with people trying to iron out “Round Midnight” – those things are meant to sound like that. And they make perfect sense when you follow Monk’s rules rather than everybody else’s rules. You’ve got to go into the Monk universe to play Monk.
And that’s why he’s such a great example – because from Monk you learn that you’ve got to create your own voice. That’s the whole point. For instance, can you imagine if I started imitating your voice, because I thought, you know, I really like that accent. It’d make no sense, would it? But it seems to be that now, in music, especially in jazz, of all the art forms, where people want to sound like somebody else. It’s weird, isn’t it? And all the great masters don’t. I mean, Coltrane sounds nothing like Sonny Rollins. Contemporaries, but they sound nothing the same. I’ve just been listening to a lot to Yusef Lateef. Fantastic sound! And you think, wow, how did he come up with that sound when he’s got Coltrane on the right and Sonny Rollins on the left? And look what he came up with! [But he sounds] so him. People are being taught to play like somebody else, not to be themselves, it’s strange.
JK: On that theme, you’ve written several pieces, and you’ve discussed this topic eloquently. One of them is called The Praxis of Ahmed, which you published in an online magazine called Remaiin. In that piece you quote William Parker. “If you spend your life trying to be Charlie Parker, who will be you? We fail musically when we try to be something other than ourselves. The problem is that we go to music school, and music school is never interested in developing the music inside.” So that meant a lot to me, and it’s on the same theme. This is about finding your own voice.
PT: Yeah, William [Parker] was talking about that, and about people who go to music school to sound like someone else. He’s such an inspiration. I remember him telling me about going to Jazzmobile and meeting [bassist] Richard Davis and [that mentorship helping with] getting his own sound together. Even Bird wasn’t impressed when he heard someone trying to sound like him. I mean, Sonny Stitt was independent, he never wanted to sound like Bird, he always sounded like Sonny Stitt. Even though people said he was following [Bird], you know. But I don’t think Bird would have been impressed with all these people trying to sound like him. The model from those people [the jazz masters] is for you to find your voice, because what are you trying to say if you’re trying to convey a story? If you’re trying to tell something to elevate people, it’s going to be through your voice. That’s why we love Coltrane, why we love Monk. They touch us. Because it’s them. You know, Miles, you could say in some ways he’s such a bunch of contradictions, but when he puts that horn in his mouth, he takes you somewhere.
JK: There’s no one like him.
PT: I think it’s important. The trouble is, it’s not deliberate, but a mistake that we’ve made in jazz, is what’s happened to classical music. I think Hollywood’s got to blame, because they did this diabolical movie on Mozart. Mozart, you know, Mozart died a pauper, died with no money, you know. And they sort of glamorized Mozart. Mozart was starving to death! And I think they’ve sort of glamorized it. People forget Beethoven was a great improviser. Mozart was a great improviser. Bach was a great improviser. And now, people just sort of regurgitate that music. And now with jazz we’re starting to get the same sort of pattern going, where people are more happy hearing someone sound like a copy of somebody else.
JK: Yeah, well, it’s comfortable, you’re not confronted with anything.
PT: I say to people sometimes, of this obsession with tradition: jazz has only been around 100 years, you know. What are they talking about? In the 70s, the whole tradition could be heard, what was called jazz – you could hear Louis Armstrong, you could hear Cecil Taylor, you could hear Charles Mingus, all of the periods happening at the same time. That’s extraordinary. So why are people talking about going back to the roots and bringing jazz back home? What are they talking about? I don’t know what jazz is going to be in 100 years. Who knows? Maybe all these styles that we’re doing now, they’ll be saying, “oh, we got rid of those, we didn’t like any of them!”
JK: Who knows, but we have to celebrate what we have now.
PT: I think the trouble is, it’s always that thing when something becomes an industry, like what’s happened to a lot of classical music. People forget that Mozart improvised. When you look at the original scores there’s hardly anything on the paper, because Mozart was expecting to improvise. Beethoven had to write, because when he went deaf, he resorted to the visual. People forget that with Beethoven and the visual, you know, but the whole obsession with notation. You know, Bach? I mean, what I love about Bach – exactly like Duke – where maybe then he gets asked to perform a piece, he’ll say “oh, I haven’t got much time, we’ll just take this another key, just go up a step, and we’ll improvise on it.” And he’s a working musician.
JK: He did it to earn a living.
PT: His gig was at a church, you know what I mean? So obviously, the way he made it fresh was improvising. And, you know, and now it’s weird, I see they’ll be saying, “oh, they are not doing the rubato the same as on the page,” well, it’s not meant to be. Even originally, even when I was learning classical music, when you had a good teacher, [the written music] was just a reference point, but you’re supposed to make your own thing within that. So, yeah, I do think that we’re sort of in danger now, especially with the “new jazz police,” of really wiping the music out before it’s even started, you know?
JK: I saw that you’re playing Wigmore Hall in January, and you’ll be playing Beethoven [playing Violin Sonata No. 9 in A Op. 47 ‘Bridgetower Sonata’]
PT: Yeah! This is a good example! So, what happened is this great violinist Daniel Pioro, he asked me [to play with him.] Partly he’s a big fan and he emailed me out of the blue. Now, you know, my practice routine, I would practice Beethoven sonatas. I thought, well, how does he know that? Anyway, this guy’s very special, so I said, I didn’t want to get into the circus of proving I can play classical, so I said to Daniel, “I’ll only do this if I can improvise my part.” And he agreed, but of course that’s a hell of a lot… I’ve really dropped myself in it! [laughter] So I have to listen to his phrasing and improvise around his phrasing. But you know what? It’s very risky, but got to stick to your guns.
JK: It sounds like it will be amazing.
PT: I think it’s going to be new, but I really appreciate Daniel doing this, because this is real… you know what I mean? It’s so rare. I remember he texted me to say, “are you going to play any of the music, [that Beethoven composed] because it doesn’t matter if you do or don’t.” I mean, how many classical musicians are that open? It’s incredible. But of course, I do listen, and it’s so funny, I mean, a lot of my spare time, I’m listening to all the different versions of the sonata, to absorb it. I’m really looking forward to it. And it’s going to be unique.
JK: Yeah, I don’t know if they’re going to livestream that. I watched a lot of the Wigmore Hall livestreams during the pandemic when they did that.
PT: Oh, yeah, I don’t know if they are, to be honest. I don’t think there’s a plan for that, because I think that was what they were doing for a livestream, and I’m not even sure if it’s recorded.
JK: I may have to get on a plane, I don’t know. I wanted to ask you one more thing, which is, in interviews I’ve seen you do, and in talking to you today, I feel your laughter is such an important part of how you present yourself. So, I want to ask you about the importance of laughter and the mindset that comes with that.
PT: Oh, well, laughter is the best therapy, in my view. I mean, you know, I’ve had a bit of a rough time in 2020 when I had the stroke, and my mum passed away. [It’s] one of the things I learned from Lol [Coxhill], you know, he’s got such a dry sense of humor, and I know that Monk had a dry sense of humor too. It’s very important, also to be able to stand back, and sometimes, to be able to ridicule yourself. Some things in life are just so bizarre, and laughter is the best way of dealing with it, I’ve found that with really heavy situations. It’s a real therapy, and I think that hospitals, they should bring in people to make people laugh. Make them forget, so they don’t always think about their illnesses in the same way. Make you more positive.
I mean, I’m very lucky, I’m quite positive, in a way, you know, if you have something happen to you, you just think, “okay, that happened,” but I can pick myself up and go on the next day. So, yeah, it’s very important to me, and it’s got me through a hell of a lot of crazy situations. And to be honest with you, you don’t go into this music for the money. [laughter]. I tell you that now. There’s a lot easier ways of making a living than being a creative musician, or whatever they call us, you know what I mean? A lot easier ways. But, you know, I thank God.
JK: The mindset’s so important, though. Well, Pat, thank you for the music. It’s meant so much to me.
PT: Oh, thank you!
FOOTNOTES:
[Footnote 1] This may be the 1973 Columbia 2 LP album A Jazz Piano Anthology (KG 32355). After tracks by 28 other pianists over the history of jazz, the compilation ends with “Port of Call” by Cecil Taylor.
[Footnote 2] Coltrane’s “Alabama” was recorded on November 18, 1963, in response to the September 15, 1963, Ku Klux Klan bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama, which killed four young Black girls. I think the video Pat is talking about is an episode of Ralph J. Gleason’s Jazz Casual. Coltrane appeared on Jazz Casual on December 7, 1963. The video of the full episode is here. Gleason’s introduction to “Alabama” is at 7:10. Gleason has a lot to say about the role of the artist, but as Pat says, does not talk about Coltrane’s intentions with the piece.